Discussion about this post

User's avatar
jivashastra's avatar

Fantastic article. I've never been convinced that anything as insipid as Sellic Spell could have been the immediate inspiration for Beowulf, but hadn't considered that Beowulf itself, while much more exalted than its Germanic myth-cognates, might be regarded as a less soðe gebunden form (on an image-symbolic if not necessarily a verbal level) of something far more exotic and elemental.

My quibble is with the three-stage degeneration model. First, subjectively, I don't agree that heroic poetry is strictly a downgrade from ritualistic/primitive mythic poetry. It's probably true that it corresponds to a social demotion of the poet from divine conduit to propagandist, entertainer, and the like; and insofar as one's enjoyment of Beowulf does not depend on participating in or even deeply appreciating the poet's religious milieu, it resembles folklore more than it does an accessory to ritual. But I'm not such an elitist that I consider popular (or courtly) appeal to be an ipso facto indictment of the aesthetic quality of a work. Beowulf is bound to be by some objective measures subtler and more complex than its earliest sources; more importantly, its overriding purpose can be loosely described as artistic, which gives it an obvious advantage over genres where any "merely" artistic appreciation is incidental. I too am happy to punt on questions like why Beowulf found Grendel's mother harder to kill than Grendel himself, not because I don't think the poem deserves to be taken seriously due to its ostensibly vulgar origins, but because it forms a coherent enough whole that I can tolerate some shadowy psychologization or even outright arbitrariness. And as you conceded in passing, the hypothetical ancestral form probably also had its share of arbitrariness. If deep-primitive parallels like the Australian ritual-myths documented by Joseph Campbell are anything to judge by, either artistic mediation a la Beowulf, anthropological voyeurism a la Campbell, or direct participation would be necessary to make it palatable. I don't expect I would derive any deep spiritual edification merely from knowing the prehistory of Beowulf's armlock on Grendel, even if it happened to have a very satisfying explanation.

Second, although there is a sense in which heroic poems are intermediate between ritual/mythic poetry and folktales, it goes too far to position them as a necessary causal link. In the Stone or Bronze Age communities you seem to have in mind, there would be little to stop the priestly/shamanic version of the tale from percolating into the broader community, being recycled for whatever didactic/pedagogical/recreational purpose, and then taking on a life of its own. Also, the transmission could just easily have gone in the opposite direction. It's not as if myths spring full-formed (verse and all) into the mind of the shaman and immediately graft themselves onto a ritual which arises co-dependently. Moreover, base folktales must be more portable than their esoteric ritual counterparts, and so might preferred in cases where one needs to invoke horizontal cross-cultural transmission to explain the patterns of diffusion. Heroic poetry generally presupposes a more complex society than do either of the other modes, so it seems a bit of a stretch to make it the intermediate step in a degenerative process.

Schneeaffe's avatar

I have checked your first long quote in the original, everything seems fine except for the "vat" Trita is in. The original here is "Kufe", which I know a the bottom part of sleighs, ice-skates, water-planes, and such. I looked it up and wiktionary has a regional meaning as "vat". I suspect someone in the chain before Panzer made a mistake here.

Reading the post I did anticipate the ending in general terms, but it came up a lot more specific, and not in ways especially supported by the rest of the post. I dont think the alternative needs to be this specific. It certainly seems plausible for stories to end up as folklore, regardless of how they got their start or how they fell in that original role.

How do you think this compares to Alexander the Great, and how stories of his life spread and changed? This happened in already literate cultures, and often these stories are preserved in writing, but they follow many of the mechanisms usually associated with oral transmission.

2 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?